Comments on: Class War and Power Play http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/02/08/class-war-and-power-play/ Looking Forward to Freedom Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:03:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Philip Walker http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/02/08/class-war-and-power-play/comment-page-1/#comment-3982 Philip Walker Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:04:28 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4963#comment-3982 Richard, if you're wanting to argue that one's class is most determined by the wealth of people who are in many cases now dead, then it follows that 'soak the rich' is not class war. (I'm not ascribing that view to you, merely pointing out that there is an immediate logical dead-end lurking.) I think you're probably right about its being history, including economic history, which makes the class system: but I would argue that that is precisely what viewing class as culture leads us to conclude. As for poor grandparents leading to working class people, I'd be interested in the other way round. How many currently middle class people had grandparents who were working (or, for the sake of measuring downward mobility, upper) class? Richard, if you’re wanting to argue that one’s class is most determined by the wealth of people who are in many cases now dead, then it follows that ‘soak the rich’ is not class war. (I’m not ascribing that view to you, merely pointing out that there is an immediate logical dead-end lurking.) I think you’re probably right about its being history, including economic history, which makes the class system: but I would argue that that is precisely what viewing class as culture leads us to conclude.

As for poor grandparents leading to working class people, I’d be interested in the other way round. How many currently middle class people had grandparents who were working (or, for the sake of measuring downward mobility, upper) class?

]]> By: Sara Scarlett http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/02/08/class-war-and-power-play/comment-page-1/#comment-3981 Sara Scarlett Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:37:22 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4963#comment-3981 "There are plenty of “right-wing” class warriors too. Every time someone attacks chavs, that’s class war too." Oh Richard, thank you for coming over and pointing out the obvious. I think 'attacking chavs' is an awful habit our society has got into too as well, as a matter of fact. “There are plenty of “right-wing” class warriors too. Every time someone attacks chavs, that’s class war too.”

Oh Richard, thank you for coming over and pointing out the obvious. I think ‘attacking chavs’ is an awful habit our society has got into too as well, as a matter of fact.

]]> By: Richard Gadsden http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/02/08/class-war-and-power-play/comment-page-1/#comment-3980 Richard Gadsden Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:22:10 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4963#comment-3980 There are plenty of "right-wing" class warriors too. Every time someone attacks chavs, that's class war too. Philip Walker's point about class as a subculture I think misses a point; class is an economically-linked subculture; people whose grandparents were rich are usually upper class; people whose grandparents were poor are usually working class or underclass. That's why Wayne Rooney isn't upper class, even though he could probably buy any three dukes (OK, not the Duke of Westminster) from the money that fell down the back of the sofa last night. There are plenty of “right-wing” class warriors too. Every time someone attacks chavs, that’s class war too.

Philip Walker’s point about class as a subculture I think misses a point; class is an economically-linked subculture; people whose grandparents were rich are usually upper class; people whose grandparents were poor are usually working class or underclass. That’s why Wayne Rooney isn’t upper class, even though he could probably buy any three dukes (OK, not the Duke of Westminster) from the money that fell down the back of the sofa last night.

]]> By: Julian Harris http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/02/08/class-war-and-power-play/comment-page-1/#comment-3978 Julian Harris Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:17:34 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4963#comment-3978 Interestingly (for me at least), I've never met a class warrior who can genuinely claim to be working class. They all work in stuff like media or politics, and have state-subsidised degrees spilling from every orifice. Strange, angry people. Interestingly (for me at least), I’ve never met a class warrior who can genuinely claim to be working class. They all work in stuff like media or politics, and have state-subsidised degrees spilling from every orifice. Strange, angry people.

]]> By: Philip Walker http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/02/08/class-war-and-power-play/comment-page-1/#comment-3977 Philip Walker Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:57:45 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4963#comment-3977 I think one's view of class warfare is coloured by one's perceptions of class. If one views class as being synonymous with wealth and/or power, and especially if one views the rich and or powerful as being exploitative by the simple fact of their existence, then it become important to wage a war against 'the upper classes'. To me, class is subculture: you can be poor as church mice, social weaklings, and still be upper class. Sure, there are trappings which are associated with wealth: going to the right school, employing the right butler, that kind of thing. But mostly, it's about things like speaking the right way and using the right cutlery. Equally, as you suggest, the trade unions wield great power, and non-unionised workers lose out to unionised ones. So opposition to power structures is not going to align at all neatly with opposition to a subculture. I think one’s view of class warfare is coloured by one’s perceptions of class. If one views class as being synonymous with wealth and/or power, and especially if one views the rich and or powerful as being exploitative by the simple fact of their existence, then it become important to wage a war against ‘the upper classes’.

To me, class is subculture: you can be poor as church mice, social weaklings, and still be upper class. Sure, there are trappings which are associated with wealth: going to the right school, employing the right butler, that kind of thing. But mostly, it’s about things like speaking the right way and using the right cutlery.

Equally, as you suggest, the trade unions wield great power, and non-unionised workers lose out to unionised ones. So opposition to power structures is not going to align at all neatly with opposition to a subculture.

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