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	<title>Comments on: Strange Bedfellows&#8230; (Again!)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/</link>
	<description>Looking Forward to Freedom</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 05:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Matthew Huntbach</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3326</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Huntbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3326</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;
Although we do not quite have this our Site Valuation and £10,000 minimum tax threshold are the best on offer in the UK. Its a clear policy that is easy to explain on the doorsteps and truly separates us from Labour and the Conservatives.
&lt;/i&gt;

I myself am a supporter of LVT, and would certainly agree with the idea of shifting taxation from income, particularly at the lower levels, to land values.

I would not, however, fool myself into thinking it is "easy to explain on the doorsteps". Any shift of taxation away from income tends to be met with "but income tax is the fairest tax - it's based on ability to pay". Not helped by the fact that our party went big on that argument when it (very wrongly in my view) went for local income tax to replace the community charge (which for all its faults had faint vestiges of the idea of paying tax on land value).

The "little old lady in the big house" is a very tough one to face, I've been there and I bear the scars (letters reading "How dare you - I used to vote for your party, but never again after I saw what you wrote"). While I know the answers to it in theory, they are hard to get across, particularly as we have had heavily pushed on us the idea that owning untaxed property and leaving it to your children is what life should be all about. Even though a direct result of that policy is adult children unable to get housing of their own when they actually need it most.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
Although we do not quite have this our Site Valuation and £10,000 minimum tax threshold are the best on offer in the UK. Its a clear policy that is easy to explain on the doorsteps and truly separates us from Labour and the Conservatives.<br />
</i></p>
<p>I myself am a supporter of LVT, and would certainly agree with the idea of shifting taxation from income, particularly at the lower levels, to land values.</p>
<p>I would not, however, fool myself into thinking it is &#8220;easy to explain on the doorsteps&#8221;. Any shift of taxation away from income tends to be met with &#8220;but income tax is the fairest tax - it&#8217;s based on ability to pay&#8221;. Not helped by the fact that our party went big on that argument when it (very wrongly in my view) went for local income tax to replace the community charge (which for all its faults had faint vestiges of the idea of paying tax on land value).</p>
<p>The &#8220;little old lady in the big house&#8221; is a very tough one to face, I&#8217;ve been there and I bear the scars (letters reading &#8220;How dare you - I used to vote for your party, but never again after I saw what you wrote&#8221;). While I know the answers to it in theory, they are hard to get across, particularly as we have had heavily pushed on us the idea that owning untaxed property and leaving it to your children is what life should be all about. Even though a direct result of that policy is adult children unable to get housing of their own when they actually need it most.</p>
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		<title>By: Jock</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3301</link>
		<dc:creator>Jock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3301</guid>
		<description>Geoff, I think you'd be surprised.  Few, if any, that I know who identify as "libertarian" or "market anarchist" would associate what Carson carefully distinguishes as "actually existing capitalism" with the "free market".  Certainly the modern state skewed capitalism and so called market economy is a very far cry from what the Austrian School economists would be aiming for.

I speak of "thinking" libertarians or market anarchists - the ones that write the books and work on the theory rather than the Clarksons of this world.  Indeed, I am finding myself quite in demand at the moment to speak to various such groups of libertarians and anarchists about Carson's type of Mutualism, as I hinted at in my first comment on here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff, I think you&#8217;d be surprised.  Few, if any, that I know who identify as &#8220;libertarian&#8221; or &#8220;market anarchist&#8221; would associate what Carson carefully distinguishes as &#8220;actually existing capitalism&#8221; with the &#8220;free market&#8221;.  Certainly the modern state skewed capitalism and so called market economy is a very far cry from what the Austrian School economists would be aiming for.</p>
<p>I speak of &#8220;thinking&#8221; libertarians or market anarchists - the ones that write the books and work on the theory rather than the Clarksons of this world.  Indeed, I am finding myself quite in demand at the moment to speak to various such groups of libertarians and anarchists about Carson&#8217;s type of Mutualism, as I hinted at in my first comment on here.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3300</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3300</guid>
		<description>Apologies Niklas, I missed your other post.
I will come back to the previous points you make when I have more time to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apologies Niklas, I missed your other post.<br />
I will come back to the previous points you make when I have more time to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3298</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3298</guid>
		<description>Niklas, the countries you identify as not being globalised are also countries where the state has little control either.
I consider for now my question is unanswered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Niklas, the countries you identify as not being globalised are also countries where the state has little control either.<br />
I consider for now my question is unanswered.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3297</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3297</guid>
		<description>Jock, a lot of people identify as supporting the free market do not follow your definition. They are what you call capitalists.
Well I do not assume that everyone shares your definition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jock, a lot of people identify as supporting the free market do not follow your definition. They are what you call capitalists.<br />
Well I do not assume that everyone shares your definition.</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3295</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3295</guid>
		<description>P.P.S. Registering with the website gives you a free pass for 14 days. It's a striking graph, well worth seeing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.P.S. Registering with the website gives you a free pass for 14 days. It&#8217;s a striking graph, well worth seeing.</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3294</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3294</guid>
		<description>P.S. An indication that markets and globalisation open up more and better opportunities for the poor is UNICEF's data on child labour: http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5328365

The top ten countries in the share of 5-14 year olds working between 1999-2004 are Niger (over 65%!), Togo, Burkina Faso, Sierra Leone, Chad (all over 50%), Ethiopia, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Uganda and Somalia. None of these countries can be described as well-connected with global markets.

About 70% of child labour is in agriculture, and countries with large "sweatshop" export sectors like Bangladesh and Indonesia have low rates of child labour (both under 10%).

(I hope the link works but it may be subscribers only.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. An indication that markets and globalisation open up more and better opportunities for the poor is UNICEF&#8217;s data on child labour: <a href="http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5328365" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5328365</a></p>
<p>The top ten countries in the share of 5-14 year olds working between 1999-2004 are Niger (over 65%!), Togo, Burkina Faso, Sierra Leone, Chad (all over 50%), Ethiopia, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Uganda and Somalia. None of these countries can be described as well-connected with global markets.</p>
<p>About 70% of child labour is in agriculture, and countries with large &#8220;sweatshop&#8221; export sectors like Bangladesh and Indonesia have low rates of child labour (both under 10%).</p>
<p>(I hope the link works but it may be subscribers only.)</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3293</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 14:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3293</guid>
		<description>Sara, thanks so much for putting this on the net - and the old Liberal Party's preamble (if that's what the picture at the bottom of the post is!). A pithy but punchy summary of liberalism.

@Geoff Payne: it depends how you define "good for the poor". If "good" means that the poor get a larger &lt;i&gt;share&lt;/i&gt; of national income, some of the SE Asian countries fit the bill (though equally other fast-growing developing countries have seen increasing income inequality).

If "good" means a large and sustained increase in absolute living standards (not just income but also life expectancy), then any globalised market economy would fit the bill. In his book &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Defense-Global-Capitalism-Johan-Norberg/dp/1930865465/" title="In Defense of Global Capitalism" rel="nofollow"&gt;In Defense of Global Capitalism&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt;, Johan Norberg summarised that economies that open up to trade and the market tend to see redistribution of income from the rich to the middle class. The poor are no better (or worse) off relative to their compatriots but are absolutely much better off than in closed economies. In Rawlsian ("minimax") terms this is an improvement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sara, thanks so much for putting this on the net - and the old Liberal Party&#8217;s preamble (if that&#8217;s what the picture at the bottom of the post is!). A pithy but punchy summary of liberalism.</p>
<p>@Geoff Payne: it depends how you define &#8220;good for the poor&#8221;. If &#8220;good&#8221; means that the poor get a larger <i>share</i> of national income, some of the SE Asian countries fit the bill (though equally other fast-growing developing countries have seen increasing income inequality).</p>
<p>If &#8220;good&#8221; means a large and sustained increase in absolute living standards (not just income but also life expectancy), then any globalised market economy would fit the bill. In his book <i><a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Defense-Global-Capitalism-Johan-Norberg/dp/1930865465/" title="In Defense of Global Capitalism" rel="nofollow">In Defense of Global Capitalism</a></i>, Johan Norberg summarised that economies that open up to trade and the market tend to see redistribution of income from the rich to the middle class. The poor are no better (or worse) off relative to their compatriots but are absolutely much better off than in closed economies. In Rawlsian (&#8221;minimax&#8221;) terms this is an improvement.</p>
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		<title>By: Jock Coats</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3292</link>
		<dc:creator>Jock Coats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3292</guid>
		<description>I wonder if you can identify a &lt;a href="http://jockcoats.me/geo_mutualism_explanation" rel="nofollow"&gt;a free market economy&lt;/a&gt;, period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if you can identify a <a href="http://jockcoats.me/geo_mutualism_explanation" rel="nofollow">a free market economy</a>, period.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2010/01/07/strange-bedfellows/comment-page-1/#comment-3290</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4499#comment-3290</guid>
		<description>I wonder if you can identify a free market economy which has been good for the poor?
I guess I am expecting 2 answers to the question. Either someone will point to SE Asia and say there, albeit in these countries there remains extreme poverty, or someone will say there are no "truly" free market economies, in which case we have to accept it on faith. The book "The Spirit Level" does identify Japan as a more equal society whilst at the same time it has a small state. Conversely highly taxed countries such as Sweden and Denmark are also more equal societies. However noone is proposing we follow the Japanese model - I am sure there are good reasons for that - and of course Libertarians would not accept the levels of taxation from Sweden.

On a different matter, my guess is the Michael Meadowcroft has an affection for Liberal free marketeers as he probably remembers them in the early 1960s. No doubt some kept the party alive in difficult times. Even so, the pamphlets he wrote in 1980-4 had a huge influence on the Young Liberals at the time but did not turn us into Libertarians, who more or less existed only in the Tory party. He had a strong critque of the state back then, but he wanted to decentralise it rather than privatise it.
A great idea for a fringe meeting at Lib Dem conference would be for you to organise a debate with him on Libertarianism. I would imagine you would fill the largest room.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if you can identify a free market economy which has been good for the poor?<br />
I guess I am expecting 2 answers to the question. Either someone will point to SE Asia and say there, albeit in these countries there remains extreme poverty, or someone will say there are no &#8220;truly&#8221; free market economies, in which case we have to accept it on faith. The book &#8220;The Spirit Level&#8221; does identify Japan as a more equal society whilst at the same time it has a small state. Conversely highly taxed countries such as Sweden and Denmark are also more equal societies. However noone is proposing we follow the Japanese model - I am sure there are good reasons for that - and of course Libertarians would not accept the levels of taxation from Sweden.</p>
<p>On a different matter, my guess is the Michael Meadowcroft has an affection for Liberal free marketeers as he probably remembers them in the early 1960s. No doubt some kept the party alive in difficult times. Even so, the pamphlets he wrote in 1980-4 had a huge influence on the Young Liberals at the time but did not turn us into Libertarians, who more or less existed only in the Tory party. He had a strong critque of the state back then, but he wanted to decentralise it rather than privatise it.<br />
A great idea for a fringe meeting at Lib Dem conference would be for you to organise a debate with him on Libertarianism. I would imagine you would fill the largest room.</p>
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