Comments on: Why LibDems are Wrong to Support the Illiberal Hunting Ban http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/ Looking Forward to Freedom Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:17:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Julian H http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-5591 Julian H Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:00:02 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-5591 Alex, I'd personally like to see the ban repealed, but surely you can see that this is entirely different to boxing, in which all participants *consent* to being involved. Alex, I’d personally like to see the ban repealed, but surely you can see that this is entirely different to boxing, in which all participants *consent* to being involved.

]]> By: Sara Scarlett http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-5587 Sara Scarlett Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:34:58 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-5587 I take it your comment is directed at Tim. It's not a 'trivial matter' at all. On the contrary it is a negative liberty issue. I take it your comment is directed at Tim.

It’s not a ‘trivial matter’ at all. On the contrary it is a negative liberty issue.

]]> By: Louise http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-5584 Louise Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:11:04 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-5584 The torture of animals is not a trivial matter. Get off your high horse. What makes you so much better than them? The torture of animals is not a trivial matter. Get off your high horse. What makes you so much better than them?

]]> By: Sara Scarlett http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-5339 Sara Scarlett Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:08:48 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-5339 Well, Polina, you should not be joining a 'liberal' political party. You should be joining an animal welfare group. What I didn't say in this article but in retrospect should have said is this: hunting with hounds is not a stand alone animal welfare issue. It is actually a negative liberty issue. It is not illegal for me to take my gun and purposely shoot a fox on my land. Despite the risk that I may miss the vital organs and cause suffering to the animal before I kill it. If it is not illegal for me to purposely kill a fox then this is a negative liberty issue up until the point where experts decide I am treating the animal cruelly. As has been the case in poison, gassing, self-tightening snares or spring & teeth traps. I currently disagree with the premise that hunting with hounds is less cruel than shooting it or catching it with a snare and then killing it. Until evidence objectively shows that fox hunting is crueller than the aforementioned I will consider the hunting ban to be illiberal. Well, Polina, you should not be joining a ‘liberal’ political party. You should be joining an animal welfare group.

What I didn’t say in this article but in retrospect should have said is this: hunting with hounds is not a stand alone animal welfare issue. It is actually a negative liberty issue.

It is not illegal for me to take my gun and purposely shoot a fox on my land. Despite the risk that I may miss the vital organs and cause suffering to the animal before I kill it.

If it is not illegal for me to purposely kill a fox then this is a negative liberty issue up until the point where experts decide I am treating the animal cruelly. As has been the case in poison, gassing, self-tightening snares or spring & teeth traps.

I currently disagree with the premise that hunting with hounds is less cruel than shooting it or catching it with a snare and then killing it. Until evidence objectively shows that fox hunting is crueller than the aforementioned I will consider the hunting ban to be illiberal.

]]> By: Polina http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-5335 Polina Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:55:51 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-5335 The LibDems will certainly get my vote in this coming General Election if they promise not to reinstate the horror of hunting with dogs. In fact if they would pledge to eliminate ALL hunting I would gladly join up and be a member. I hope to see the human race become more civilised, with Britain at the forefront. I would like to see all animal welfare given far more prominence. Thugs who use violence on fellow humans have very often started their cruelty on animals. I would like to see the penalty for cruelty of any kind being very high, i.e. hard labour, and behind bars. The LibDems will certainly get my vote in this coming General Election if they promise not to reinstate the horror of hunting with dogs. In fact if they would pledge to eliminate ALL hunting I would gladly join up and be a member. I hope to see the human race become more civilised, with Britain at the forefront. I would like to see all animal welfare given far more prominence. Thugs who use violence on fellow humans have very often started their cruelty on animals. I would like to see the penalty for cruelty of any kind being very high, i.e. hard labour, and behind bars.

]]> By: Alex Agius. http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-3130 Alex Agius. Sun, 03 Jan 2010 14:26:21 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-3130 I don't understand why our government has banned the sport of fox hunting but not the sport of human boxing. Why is this? I don’t understand why our government has banned the sport of fox hunting but not the sport of human boxing. Why is this?

]]> By: Sara Scarlett http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-3002 Sara Scarlett Mon, 28 Dec 2009 13:45:18 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-3002 Paul, rural areas have suffered under New Labour more than usual. You are displaying the same insensitivity towards these issues as any metropolitan new Labour MP. Rural affairs have been neglected. The way anti-ban protestors are behaving, it's rebellion. Since rural poverty was such a neglected issue anyway to then callously take peoples livelihoods away from them is just reckless. As one commentator on facebook commented: "more specifically, it has always struck me... as rich for city-folk (myself included) to preach morality at the same farmers whose livelihoods have been systematically rinsed by relentless mismanagement from successive Tory/New Labour govts. Perhaps those farmers know best how to manage their business? Perhaps people in the Westminter Bubble should consider the effect on the local economy before making bold statements about animal welfare which should be considered in relation to the fact that farmers have been killing predators to their crop for as long as farming has existed, and the fact that farming could not exist without that." Paul, rural areas have suffered under New Labour more than usual. You are displaying the same insensitivity towards these issues as any metropolitan new Labour MP. Rural affairs have been neglected. The way anti-ban protestors are behaving, it’s rebellion. Since rural poverty was such a neglected issue anyway to then callously take peoples livelihoods away from them is just reckless. As one commentator on facebook commented: “more specifically, it has always struck me… as rich for city-folk (myself included) to preach morality at the same farmers whose livelihoods have been systematically rinsed by relentless mismanagement from successive Tory/New Labour govts. Perhaps those farmers know best how to manage their business? Perhaps people in the Westminter Bubble should consider the effect on the local economy before making bold statements about animal welfare which should be considered in relation to the fact that farmers have been killing predators to their crop for as long as farming has existed, and the fact that farming could not exist without that.”

]]> By: nonconformistradical http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-2980 nonconformistradical Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:39:39 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-2980 "I also don’t understand how you can claim I am imposing my view on rural people, when a majority oppose hunting with dogs." I have never been able to understand why any farmer would support a practice involving a pack of hounds followed by hordes of people on horseback rampaging over their fields, disturbing their livestock, damaging crops etc. “I also don’t understand how you can claim I am imposing my view on rural people, when a majority oppose hunting with dogs.”

I have never been able to understand why any farmer would support a practice involving a pack of hounds followed by hordes of people on horseback rampaging over their fields, disturbing their livestock, damaging crops etc.

]]> By: Paul Pettinger http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-2979 Paul Pettinger Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:51:00 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-2979 I am one of the metropolitan elite? Can you explain what that means? I am not sure what relevance the social group you think I belong to has on the validity of my argument here. I don’t understand how you can think that banning fox hunting unfairly targets a group of people, when it is clear that the practice of hunting with dogs was so out of keeping with pre-existing animal welfare laws. I also don’t understand how you can claim I am imposing my view on rural people, when a majority oppose hunting with dogs. You appear to be the one who is imposing their opinion. However, that is not necessarily important when there are sound principled arguments at stake. To say that proponents of the ban are being illiberal though is churlish; I could just as easily say the same of you. The key issue here concerns the rights of humans vs the rights of animals. Fox hunting is unnecessary, most people do not think people should be allowed to cause pain and suffering to animals in this way for entertainment and I unashamedly sit on this side of the argument. Claiming it is primarily an issue of class prejudice is inaccurate and a distraction, readily put forward by some sections of the anti-hunt lobby. Hunting with dogs is not a discriminate way to hunt foxes. Quite the opposite is true. Hunts pick up all sorts of scents and can end up killing all sorts of animals, including domestic pets. Fortunately it is an extraordinarily unproductive way of hunting, which is why it can not be put forward as a serious method of ‘managing’ foxes, not that they need to be controlled out side of areas with ground nesting birds and (at a stretch) lambs. Foxes are excellent at controlling rabbits and rats, and in fact reduce the need for environmentally damaging methods used to control the numbers of these species. Tim, I think you would have done better to point out that there are bigger animal welfare issues out there than hunting with dogs - I and others are not embarrassed to be concerned about animal welfare. I am one of the metropolitan elite? Can you explain what that means? I am not sure what relevance the social group you think I belong to has on the validity of my argument here.

I don’t understand how you can think that banning fox hunting unfairly targets a group of people, when it is clear that the practice of hunting with dogs was so out of keeping with pre-existing animal welfare laws.

I also don’t understand how you can claim I am imposing my view on rural people, when a majority oppose hunting with dogs. You appear to be the one who is imposing their opinion. However, that is not necessarily important when there are sound principled arguments at stake. To say that proponents of the ban are being illiberal though is churlish; I could just as easily say the same of you.

The key issue here concerns the rights of humans vs the rights of animals. Fox hunting is unnecessary, most people do not think people should be allowed to cause pain and suffering to animals in this way for entertainment and I unashamedly sit on this side of the argument. Claiming it is primarily an issue of class prejudice is inaccurate and a distraction, readily put forward by some sections of the anti-hunt lobby.

Hunting with dogs is not a discriminate way to hunt foxes. Quite the opposite is true. Hunts pick up all sorts of scents and can end up killing all sorts of animals, including domestic pets. Fortunately it is an extraordinarily unproductive way of hunting, which is why it can not be put forward as a serious method of ‘managing’ foxes, not that they need to be controlled out side of areas with ground nesting birds and (at a stretch) lambs. Foxes are excellent at controlling rabbits and rats, and in fact reduce the need for environmentally damaging methods used to control the numbers of these species.

Tim, I think you would have done better to point out that there are bigger animal welfare issues out there than hunting with dogs – I and others are not embarrassed to be concerned about animal welfare.

]]> By: tim leunig http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/12/26/why-the-libdems-are-wrong-to-support-the-illiberal-hunting-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-2976 tim leunig Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:24:19 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=4170#comment-2976 There is nothing like fox hunting to get people going! Of all the issues that face Britain today, I find it hard to be bothered by one so trivial. We know that our healthcare system delivers child mortality 25 per week above Sweden. We know that our education system delivers a poor education to those from poor backgrounds. We know that our planning system means that millions cannot afford a decent place of their own. We know that the police can harass anyone using a camera. We know that authors have difficulty reading is schools. We know that racism and sexism remain entrenched. We know that 1 in 4 people living in social housing flats are afraid to go out. Wars in Iraq and Afghanisation are costing a fortune. There is nothing like fox hunting to get people going! Of all the issues that face Britain today, I find it hard to be bothered by one so trivial. We know that our healthcare system delivers child mortality 25 per week above Sweden. We know that our education system delivers a poor education to those from poor backgrounds. We know that our planning system means that millions cannot afford a decent place of their own. We know that the police can harass anyone using a camera. We know that authors have difficulty reading is schools. We know that racism and sexism remain entrenched. We know that 1 in 4 people living in social housing flats are afraid to go out. Wars in Iraq and Afghanisation are costing a fortune.

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