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	<title>Comments on: When not all sleaze is created equal&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/</link>
	<description>Looking Forward to Freedom</description>
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		<title>By: Agent Orange</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-2002</link>
		<dc:creator>Agent Orange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-2002</guid>
		<description>Lost in the detail a little on this though is the original point of the inquiry, which was to see whether the perception that the Federal Executive had done nothing about peergate, or the cover-up by Shutt &amp; Scott through a deliberately inadequate and &#039;outside the rules&#039; inquiry, was correct. 

Duncan&#039;s spasms of rage about being asked such questions would be more reasonable had he answered with a strong clarification of what the FE or he had actually done and why. 

Even now though he hasn&#039;t even responded to Orangjepan&#039;s very modest request for a clarification of what constitutes due process in the party on such matters. 

You can judge for yourself whether this is evidence for or against there being a cover-up and nonfeasance. 

Is this important?

I think so for two reasons. First on the issue at hand is that the party is now in a very difficult position should  external investigations against the accused escalate, which is not improbable given Parliament are investigating Rennard, and the Police other peers. 

This is not just a reputational difficulty, although given Clegg&#039;s statements the hypocrisy is stunning, the FE&#039;s inaction already means tens of thousands of the member&#039;s money has been spent paying off Lord Rennard for his &#039;resignation&#039;. It is unclear whether more money is now either being spent on defending him in the Parliamentary inquiry or will be spent in future for any peer so accused.

That is the immediate problem. The second issue it raises, is what is the point of the Federal Exeuctive?

Personally I think we need a strong, democratic member&#039;s body within the party to hold the Leader, Chief Executive, and other delegated party bodies to account. The Federal Executive/President as constituted already have those powers, some actual some through influence, and you could not have had a more stark test of how it chooses to use them than the public exposure of the Chief Executive on accusations of fraud. 

I think the evidence strongly shows the Chief Whip in the Lords and President have behaved improperly and the FE have let them do it without so much as a whimper of protest. 

Which leads us back to problem one, and what would happen should such a situation arise again. That should cause all of us some concern.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lost in the detail a little on this though is the original point of the inquiry, which was to see whether the perception that the Federal Executive had done nothing about peergate, or the cover-up by Shutt &amp; Scott through a deliberately inadequate and &#8216;outside the rules&#8217; inquiry, was correct. </p>
<p>Duncan&#8217;s spasms of rage about being asked such questions would be more reasonable had he answered with a strong clarification of what the FE or he had actually done and why. </p>
<p>Even now though he hasn&#8217;t even responded to Orangjepan&#8217;s very modest request for a clarification of what constitutes due process in the party on such matters. </p>
<p>You can judge for yourself whether this is evidence for or against there being a cover-up and nonfeasance. </p>
<p>Is this important?</p>
<p>I think so for two reasons. First on the issue at hand is that the party is now in a very difficult position should  external investigations against the accused escalate, which is not improbable given Parliament are investigating Rennard, and the Police other peers. </p>
<p>This is not just a reputational difficulty, although given Clegg&#8217;s statements the hypocrisy is stunning, the FE&#8217;s inaction already means tens of thousands of the member&#8217;s money has been spent paying off Lord Rennard for his &#8216;resignation&#8217;. It is unclear whether more money is now either being spent on defending him in the Parliamentary inquiry or will be spent in future for any peer so accused.</p>
<p>That is the immediate problem. The second issue it raises, is what is the point of the Federal Exeuctive?</p>
<p>Personally I think we need a strong, democratic member&#8217;s body within the party to hold the Leader, Chief Executive, and other delegated party bodies to account. The Federal Executive/President as constituted already have those powers, some actual some through influence, and you could not have had a more stark test of how it chooses to use them than the public exposure of the Chief Executive on accusations of fraud. </p>
<p>I think the evidence strongly shows the Chief Whip in the Lords and President have behaved improperly and the FE have let them do it without so much as a whimper of protest. </p>
<p>Which leads us back to problem one, and what would happen should such a situation arise again. That should cause all of us some concern.</p>
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		<title>By: sleaze buster</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-2000</link>
		<dc:creator>sleaze buster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-2000</guid>
		<description>If Duncan thinks his local papers will be interested in this, he is even more deluded than I thought</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Duncan thinks his local papers will be interested in this, he is even more deluded than I thought</p>
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		<title>By: Anonyblogging &#8211; how to respond &#171; Agent Orange</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-1993</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonyblogging &#8211; how to respond &#171; Agent Orange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-1993</guid>
		<description>[...] that and some of the comments on this week&#8217;s heated row over at LV it seems reasonable to update the About section of this site so people are more clear [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that and some of the comments on this week&#8217;s heated row over at LV it seems reasonable to update the About section of this site so people are more clear [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Oranjepan</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-1985</link>
		<dc:creator>Oranjepan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-1985</guid>
		<description>AO,
no, it&#039;s not appropriate that Duncan describes what he has done at this point. That would preempt due process.

However it would be appropriate for him to use his position to communicate how the process works and what challenges and issues are being faced. Where are we? Is there a list of potential mechanisms worth discussing (such as the rent-only housing allowance mentioned by Clegg)?

Where defensive reactions are provoked it is only natural that some guilt will be assumed, so it is important that communication channels are kept open and used to demonstrate our proactive approach to increasing transparency.

Might I suggest that Duncan could support Clegg&#039;s message from a few days ago by putting a bit of meat on the bones for us plebs. I&#039;m sure LDV would welcome a contribution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AO,<br />
no, it&#8217;s not appropriate that Duncan describes what he has done at this point. That would preempt due process.</p>
<p>However it would be appropriate for him to use his position to communicate how the process works and what challenges and issues are being faced. Where are we? Is there a list of potential mechanisms worth discussing (such as the rent-only housing allowance mentioned by Clegg)?</p>
<p>Where defensive reactions are provoked it is only natural that some guilt will be assumed, so it is important that communication channels are kept open and used to demonstrate our proactive approach to increasing transparency.</p>
<p>Might I suggest that Duncan could support Clegg&#8217;s message from a few days ago by putting a bit of meat on the bones for us plebs. I&#8217;m sure LDV would welcome a contribution.</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan Borrowman</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-1984</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan Borrowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-1984</guid>
		<description>Still digging? Sorry, you started this venom from behind your mask of anonymity. Anyway you take my comments about Chris out of context. I was referring to those bright young things who talk as if the party would have been better off without him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still digging? Sorry, you started this venom from behind your mask of anonymity. Anyway you take my comments about Chris out of context. I was referring to those bright young things who talk as if the party would have been better off without him.</p>
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		<title>By: Agent Orange</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-1983</link>
		<dc:creator>Agent Orange</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-1983</guid>
		<description>Duncan, I&#039;m surprised you&#039;re still digging on this:

&quot;I am in a position to tackle things in the Lib Dems internally, so that is where I will do it.&quot;

So bluntly, in respect of peergate, what have you done? 

All that is publicly evident is that you prejudged any investigation by publishing a staunch defence of Rennard and accused his critics of being &quot;ungrateful b*$^@%}s&quot;, and have lately been commenting about the different standards you apply to Lib Dem and non-Lib Dem sleaze.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duncan, I&#8217;m surprised you&#8217;re still digging on this:</p>
<p>&#8220;I am in a position to tackle things in the Lib Dems internally, so that is where I will do it.&#8221;</p>
<p>So bluntly, in respect of peergate, what have you done? </p>
<p>All that is publicly evident is that you prejudged any investigation by publishing a staunch defence of Rennard and accused his critics of being &#8220;ungrateful b*$^@%}s&#8221;, and have lately been commenting about the different standards you apply to Lib Dem and non-Lib Dem sleaze.</p>
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		<title>By: GF</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-1982</link>
		<dc:creator>GF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-1982</guid>
		<description>Mr Borrowman (if it&#039;s really you... I can&#039;t quite bring myself to believe that someone looking to get elected would really behave as you are now!),

This is matter of public interest and therefore can be discussed in public. We are discussing particularly your statement

&lt;blockquote&gt;My public pronouncements on the failings of politicians will always be about my political opponents, not those in the same party as me.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I can assure you that your political opponents include those who misuse public funds, even those in the same party as you. Otherwise, you may find that most of the voting public become your political opponents too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Borrowman (if it&#8217;s really you&#8230; I can&#8217;t quite bring myself to believe that someone looking to get elected would really behave as you are now!),</p>
<p>This is matter of public interest and therefore can be discussed in public. We are discussing particularly your statement</p>
<blockquote><p>My public pronouncements on the failings of politicians will always be about my political opponents, not those in the same party as me.</p></blockquote>
<p>I can assure you that your political opponents include those who misuse public funds, even those in the same party as you. Otherwise, you may find that most of the voting public become your political opponents too.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-1981</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-1981</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t followed all this business too closely but from what I can tell these pieces have called for the &lt;i&gt;party to investigate&lt;/i&gt; and then take action &lt;i&gt;if necessary&lt;/i&gt; (and be seen to be doing this) following fair and open proceedings. This is quite different, indeed polar opposite, to a trial by internet.

So if I ask &quot;have the party looked into whether Rennard&#039;s primary home was in Eastbourne?&quot; I&#039;m not saying &quot;STRING HIM UP! IT&#039;S A LIE!&quot; I&#039;m actually asking for the party to do the right thing and investigate the matter. Then, if it&#039;s the case, they can reassure us that no wrongdoing has taken place, and we can all move on and get back to attacking Cameron&#039;s vacuous &quot;policies&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t followed all this business too closely but from what I can tell these pieces have called for the <i>party to investigate</i> and then take action <i>if necessary</i> (and be seen to be doing this) following fair and open proceedings. This is quite different, indeed polar opposite, to a trial by internet.</p>
<p>So if I ask &#8220;have the party looked into whether Rennard&#8217;s primary home was in Eastbourne?&#8221; I&#8217;m not saying &#8220;STRING HIM UP! IT&#8217;S A LIE!&#8221; I&#8217;m actually asking for the party to do the right thing and investigate the matter. Then, if it&#8217;s the case, they can reassure us that no wrongdoing has taken place, and we can all move on and get back to attacking Cameron&#8217;s vacuous &#8220;policies&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan Borrowman</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-1980</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan Borrowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-1980</guid>
		<description>Dear GF
I am sure my local papers will see this. Maybe Liberal Vision should have thought about that before they published the outrageous thoughts of somebody who only has the aim of damaging the party as she demonstrated in her failed attempt to become chair of Liberal Youth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear GF<br />
I am sure my local papers will see this. Maybe Liberal Vision should have thought about that before they published the outrageous thoughts of somebody who only has the aim of damaging the party as she demonstrated in her failed attempt to become chair of Liberal Youth</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan Borrowman</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/30/when-not-all-sleaze-is-created-equal/comment-page-1/#comment-1979</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan Borrowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2757#comment-1979</guid>
		<description>People who are accused of criminal acts expressed in ways that assume their guilt in trial by internet. 
But then I may go in for a bit of trial by internet myself soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who are accused of criminal acts expressed in ways that assume their guilt in trial by internet.<br />
But then I may go in for a bit of trial by internet myself soon.</p>
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