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	<title>Comments on: Vince Cable’s “solution” to high pay…another quango</title>
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	<description>Looking Forward to Freedom</description>
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		<title>By: what is leukemia</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-2/#comment-14395</link>
		<dc:creator>what is leukemia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-14395</guid>
		<description>Thank you for share very good knowledges. Your web is goodI am impressed by the information that you have on this blog. It shows how well you understand this subject. Bookmarked this page, will come back for more. You, my friend, ROCK! I found just the information I already searched everywhere and just couldn’t find. What a perfect site. Like this website your website is one of my new favs.I like this information given and it has given me some sort of inspiration to succeed for some reason, so thank you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for share very good knowledges. Your web is goodI am impressed by the information that you have on this blog. It shows how well you understand this subject. Bookmarked this page, will come back for more. You, my friend, ROCK! I found just the information I already searched everywhere and just couldn’t find. What a perfect site. Like this website your website is one of my new favs.I like this information given and it has given me some sort of inspiration to succeed for some reason, so thank you</p>
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		<title>By: Time for a high-pay commission?</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-2/#comment-1919</link>
		<dc:creator>Time for a high-pay commission?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-1919</guid>
		<description>[...] Littlewood at Liberal Vision and Giles Wilkes at Centre Forum&#8217;s FreeThink covered the issue here and here, with Mark&#8217;s critical article of Vince&#8217;s intervention in particular provoking [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Littlewood at Liberal Vision and Giles Wilkes at Centre Forum&#8217;s FreeThink covered the issue here and here, with Mark&#8217;s critical article of Vince&#8217;s intervention in particular provoking [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Giles Freethink</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-2/#comment-1916</link>
		<dc:creator>Giles Freethink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 12:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-1916</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s actually very kind of Gandhi to offer to step in and correct the commercial decisions of private companies.  Perhaps they could set up some sort of quango by which well-meaning, hyper-rational bloggers offer their advice for free to badly-led companies, thereby gently nudging them towards a more profitable and socially acceptable course?  I&#039;m slightly annoyed I didn&#039;t think of it. 

This problem is very specific to football clubs: the tournament model means that at particlar points in the &quot;ability-outcome&quot; curve, a small increase in the squad&#039;s skill might produce a discontinuously sharp increase in the club&#039;s fortunes.  The sharpest such point lies at promotion/relegation to either the Champions&#039; League or the Premiership itself.   If as a player you get to occupy that point, then you get to capture a lot of that uplift.   It might be rational for a club to pay an extra £2m to a player if they think it increases the chances of getting into a league worth £50m by 5% or so.   

So not necessarily incompetence, though I bet Chelsea would benefit hugely from reading all this.  It is just the footballers have a unique ability to monopolise a skill, the high value of which is largely a matter of the industry structure.  They should be taxed, but trying to cap transfer fees or salaries would just produce flight and evasion. 

let&#039;s move onto executives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s actually very kind of Gandhi to offer to step in and correct the commercial decisions of private companies.  Perhaps they could set up some sort of quango by which well-meaning, hyper-rational bloggers offer their advice for free to badly-led companies, thereby gently nudging them towards a more profitable and socially acceptable course?  I&#8217;m slightly annoyed I didn&#8217;t think of it. </p>
<p>This problem is very specific to football clubs: the tournament model means that at particlar points in the &#8220;ability-outcome&#8221; curve, a small increase in the squad&#8217;s skill might produce a discontinuously sharp increase in the club&#8217;s fortunes.  The sharpest such point lies at promotion/relegation to either the Champions&#8217; League or the Premiership itself.   If as a player you get to occupy that point, then you get to capture a lot of that uplift.   It might be rational for a club to pay an extra £2m to a player if they think it increases the chances of getting into a league worth £50m by 5% or so.   </p>
<p>So not necessarily incompetence, though I bet Chelsea would benefit hugely from reading all this.  It is just the footballers have a unique ability to monopolise a skill, the high value of which is largely a matter of the industry structure.  They should be taxed, but trying to cap transfer fees or salaries would just produce flight and evasion. </p>
<p>let&#8217;s move onto executives.</p>
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		<title>By: Gandhi</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-2/#comment-1915</link>
		<dc:creator>Gandhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-1915</guid>
		<description>While I think of it, even given the current system, the evidence is that John Terry (and other top stars) &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; overpaid.

Chelsea etc &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; that their top people are worth that money to them but they are wrong.  It is only the fact of their common incompetence that keeps the salaries (and transfer fees) so high.  Premiership pay is just another bubble.

See?
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/chelsea/article1496727.ece&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Terry demands £60m deal&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/terry-secures-worldbeating-16335m-contract-459290.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Terry secures world-beating £35m contract&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2329097/Roman-Abramovich-clears-Chelsea-debt.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Roman Abramovich clears Chelsea debt&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jun/02/premier-league-clubs-debt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Latest figures show Premier League clubs owe £3.1bn&lt;/a&gt;

Crazy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I think of it, even given the current system, the evidence is that John Terry (and other top stars) <i>are</i> overpaid.</p>
<p>Chelsea etc <i>think</i> that their top people are worth that money to them but they are wrong.  It is only the fact of their common incompetence that keeps the salaries (and transfer fees) so high.  Premiership pay is just another bubble.</p>
<p>See?<br />
<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/chelsea/article1496727.ece" rel="nofollow">Terry demands £60m deal</a><br />
<a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/terry-secures-worldbeating-16335m-contract-459290.html" rel="nofollow">Terry secures world-beating £35m contract</a><br />
<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2329097/Roman-Abramovich-clears-Chelsea-debt.html" rel="nofollow">Roman Abramovich clears Chelsea debt</a><br />
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jun/02/premier-league-clubs-debt" rel="nofollow">Latest figures show Premier League clubs owe £3.1bn</a></p>
<p>Crazy.</p>
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		<title>By: Gandhi</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-2/#comment-1914</link>
		<dc:creator>Gandhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-1914</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;ML:&lt;/b&gt; If that&#039;s what you think, consider John Terry uses his own personally built &quot;stadium&quot; in a remote fishing village or similar, does his own advertising (by shouting &quot;hear ye&quot; etc), collecting the tickets himself, providing refreshments himself, bringing his own football, and playing with himself (no pun) for 90 minutes.

Are people going to pay to watch John Terry tap a ball about on his own week-after-week?  How is he going to make big money unless he has access to TV revenues?

Or is there something other than just John Terry that brings in the fans?

Now consider what his never having existed would have done for the fortunes of his club - would you like to calculate the resultant reduction in today&#039;s ticket price?  The word infinitesimal comes to mind.

You have fallen for a very simplistic illusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>ML:</b> If that&#8217;s what you think, consider John Terry uses his own personally built &#8220;stadium&#8221; in a remote fishing village or similar, does his own advertising (by shouting &#8220;hear ye&#8221; etc), collecting the tickets himself, providing refreshments himself, bringing his own football, and playing with himself (no pun) for 90 minutes.</p>
<p>Are people going to pay to watch John Terry tap a ball about on his own week-after-week?  How is he going to make big money unless he has access to TV revenues?</p>
<p>Or is there something other than just John Terry that brings in the fans?</p>
<p>Now consider what his never having existed would have done for the fortunes of his club &#8211; would you like to calculate the resultant reduction in today&#8217;s ticket price?  The word infinitesimal comes to mind.</p>
<p>You have fallen for a very simplistic illusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Littlewood</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-2/#comment-1912</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Littlewood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 23:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-1912</guid>
		<description>@ Gandhi &quot;ML: To answer your question: I would say that to claim that anyone is worth 500 times more than anybody else is crazy&quot;

I&#039;m not as clear about your insanity as you seem to be about mine. In the course of a few blog posts, you now seem to latch on to the 500:1 ratio...rather than the 226:1...would 50:1 be okay? Or 100:1...or 25:1???? 

I think that to Chelsea FC, John Terry is worth 500 times the salary of the tea lady (at least).

I don&#039;t even see why this would even be controversial.

I have yet to meet many Chelsea fans paying £80 a ticket who are doing so because they like the tea lady. I don&#039;t think the Chelsea megastore sell many &quot;Tea Lady&quot; shirts - but they do sell thousands of Terry shirts. At a neat profit of c. £35 a pop.

This doesn&#039;t make John Terry a more worthy human being than the tea lady. But it does make him worth at least 500 times what she is to Chelsea FC. And it&#039;s a little quirky - possibly even verging on insane - to argue otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Gandhi &#8220;ML: To answer your question: I would say that to claim that anyone is worth 500 times more than anybody else is crazy&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not as clear about your insanity as you seem to be about mine. In the course of a few blog posts, you now seem to latch on to the 500:1 ratio&#8230;rather than the 226:1&#8230;would 50:1 be okay? Or 100:1&#8230;or 25:1???? </p>
<p>I think that to Chelsea FC, John Terry is worth 500 times the salary of the tea lady (at least).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t even see why this would even be controversial.</p>
<p>I have yet to meet many Chelsea fans paying £80 a ticket who are doing so because they like the tea lady. I don&#8217;t think the Chelsea megastore sell many &#8220;Tea Lady&#8221; shirts &#8211; but they do sell thousands of Terry shirts. At a neat profit of c. £35 a pop.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t make John Terry a more worthy human being than the tea lady. But it does make him worth at least 500 times what she is to Chelsea FC. And it&#8217;s a little quirky &#8211; possibly even verging on insane &#8211; to argue otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: Gandhi</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-1/#comment-1911</link>
		<dc:creator>Gandhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-1911</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Giles:&lt;/b&gt; Oh dear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Giles:</b> Oh dear.</p>
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		<title>By: Giles Freethink</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-1/#comment-1910</link>
		<dc:creator>Giles Freethink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-1910</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still waiting to hear what the other, best solutions are.   But anything more specific - bureaucrats or worthies discussing what X in industry Y is worth, for example - are either terrible for incentives, distorting, easily avoided or some combination. 

Redistributive liberalism - the least worst option.  I&#039;ll just go off and write it on a placard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still waiting to hear what the other, best solutions are.   But anything more specific &#8211; bureaucrats or worthies discussing what X in industry Y is worth, for example &#8211; are either terrible for incentives, distorting, easily avoided or some combination. </p>
<p>Redistributive liberalism &#8211; the least worst option.  I&#8217;ll just go off and write it on a placard.</p>
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		<title>By: Gandhi</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-1/#comment-1909</link>
		<dc:creator>Gandhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-1909</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Giles:&lt;/b&gt; redistributive taxation is a palliative at best, there are structural problems that need to be addressed.  Tax is the &lt;i&gt;most-worst&lt;/i&gt; solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Giles:</b> redistributive taxation is a palliative at best, there are structural problems that need to be addressed.  Tax is the <i>most-worst</i> solution.</p>
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		<title>By: Giles Freethink</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/08/17/vine-cable%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%9csolution%e2%80%9d-to-high-pay%e2%80%a6another-quango/comment-page-1/#comment-1908</link>
		<dc:creator>Giles Freethink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2619#comment-1908</guid>
		<description>Julian - thanks, and yeah, there&#039;s no such think as perfect competition.  But there is also no such thing as a Euclidean world of straight lines etc (if my half-assed understanding of post Newton physics is anything to go by), but it still provides a useful rule of thumb.  Similarly in some labour markets (Burger King), I suspect the wages tend towards the level that a perfect-competition model would predict, although even then wrinkes like efficiency wages, and the need to discourage the staff from stealing meat patties, produces a higher-than-needed wage. 

So, in my dull, non-moral way of seeing things, people get paid a varying factor of their &quot;I&#039;d rather not work&quot; level of wages according to whether they do something scarce (head the ball 30 yards), monopolisable (Tube drivers IMHO), or that enables them to steal/demage their company (bankers.  And tube drivers, again).  Most are &quot;fair&quot; in a narrow sense: the negotiations are non-coerced at the point of signing the contract. 

Football is still an interesting case: Steven Leavitt in Freakonomics calls them &quot;tournament&quot; models of pay, I think: he found that the footsoldiers in retail distribution of crack industry were paid very little, for quite a lot of risk (no sh1t sherlock), but were motivated by the small % chance of getting top dog position.  Hence for every Tiger Woods there are 10000 golfing professionals teaching fat divorcees how to pitch and put in some county course.  Perhaps, on average, footballers are paid not much; how it is then divided within the industry is a different matter. 

I keep hitting the same conclusions: pay should be &lt;i&gt;expected&lt;/i&gt; to be highly variable, it is seldom because of outright robbery/, quangos will not fix it, redistributive taxation is the least-worst solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julian &#8211; thanks, and yeah, there&#8217;s no such think as perfect competition.  But there is also no such thing as a Euclidean world of straight lines etc (if my half-assed understanding of post Newton physics is anything to go by), but it still provides a useful rule of thumb.  Similarly in some labour markets (Burger King), I suspect the wages tend towards the level that a perfect-competition model would predict, although even then wrinkes like efficiency wages, and the need to discourage the staff from stealing meat patties, produces a higher-than-needed wage. </p>
<p>So, in my dull, non-moral way of seeing things, people get paid a varying factor of their &#8220;I&#8217;d rather not work&#8221; level of wages according to whether they do something scarce (head the ball 30 yards), monopolisable (Tube drivers IMHO), or that enables them to steal/demage their company (bankers.  And tube drivers, again).  Most are &#8220;fair&#8221; in a narrow sense: the negotiations are non-coerced at the point of signing the contract. </p>
<p>Football is still an interesting case: Steven Leavitt in Freakonomics calls them &#8220;tournament&#8221; models of pay, I think: he found that the footsoldiers in retail distribution of crack industry were paid very little, for quite a lot of risk (no sh1t sherlock), but were motivated by the small % chance of getting top dog position.  Hence for every Tiger Woods there are 10000 golfing professionals teaching fat divorcees how to pitch and put in some county course.  Perhaps, on average, footballers are paid not much; how it is then divided within the industry is a different matter. </p>
<p>I keep hitting the same conclusions: pay should be <i>expected</i> to be highly variable, it is seldom because of outright robbery/, quangos will not fix it, redistributive taxation is the least-worst solution.</p>
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