Comments on: Libertarianism is “the Marxism of the Right” http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/ Looking Forward to Freedom Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:13:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Gandhi http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1733 Gandhi Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:25:17 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1733 <b>Geoffrey:</b> You ought to shut up if you're not going to actually read or attempt to understand other peoples' comments; there's plenty intelligent that's been said in this thread, and if you were paying attention, you'd understand that libertarians don't feel the need to make a point-by-point rebuttal of the article because it is self-evident that the writer is of rather low intelligence, and strikingly ignorant vis the subjects he foolishly deems to pass judgement upon. Your latest "point" above about psychopaths is typical of the kind of superficial argumentation which has led to our current predicament. People do not reason from cause through to effect, instead they tie themselves up in knots. If you attempt to define the terms psychopath, criminal, government etc then you ought to realise that you are talking nonsense. If you really want some fun, try to define the word "terrorist" on an individual basis and without reference to that person's group affiliation, but solely on the basis of the things he/she does. Simply, if you want to understand libertarianism, try thinking about individual people and the ways they interact with one-another. ZOOM IN from your current distant and muddled view, and start to think of other people as equal to yourself, not as distant rats occupying a maze of your design. Geoffrey: You ought to shut up if you’re not going to actually read or attempt to understand other peoples’ comments; there’s plenty intelligent that’s been said in this thread, and if you were paying attention, you’d understand that libertarians don’t feel the need to make a point-by-point rebuttal of the article because it is self-evident that the writer is of rather low intelligence, and strikingly ignorant vis the subjects he foolishly deems to pass judgement upon.

Your latest “point” above about psychopaths is typical of the kind of superficial argumentation which has led to our current predicament. People do not reason from cause through to effect, instead they tie themselves up in knots.

If you attempt to define the terms psychopath, criminal, government etc then you ought to realise that you are talking nonsense.

If you really want some fun, try to define the word “terrorist” on an individual basis and without reference to that person’s group affiliation, but solely on the basis of the things he/she does.

Simply, if you want to understand libertarianism, try thinking about individual people and the ways they interact with one-another. ZOOM IN from your current distant and muddled view, and start to think of other people as equal to yourself, not as distant rats occupying a maze of your design.

]]> By: Ziggy Encaoua http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1732 Ziggy Encaoua Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:07:01 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1732 'JS Mill once famously defended free speech on the grounds that even if you believe someone is wrong, at least their presentation of their point of view gives you the wonderful opportunity to understand your own opinions better' ' free speech allows you to see the assholes for what they are' - Anton LaVey ‘JS Mill once famously defended free speech on the grounds that even if you believe someone is wrong, at least their presentation of their point of view gives you the wonderful opportunity to understand your own opinions better’

‘ free speech allows you to see the assholes for what they are’ – Anton LaVey

]]> By: Geoffrey Payne http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1730 Geoffrey Payne Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:45:56 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1730 JS Mill once famously defended free speech on the grounds that even if you believe someone is wrong, at least their presentation of their point of view gives you the wonderful opportunity to understand your own opinions better. So I find it ironic to say the least that "Devil's Kitchen" wants me to shut up, and thereby forego the benefits of free speech accordingly! I believe in freedom but I think it is a complicated value. Giving freedom to a psychopath will allow him to kill others and in effect take away their freedom. So removing restraint does not always increase freedom. In parts of the world where governments have little or no power; Iraq, Afghanistan, DRC, Columbia the absence of restraint from government has handed de facto power over to criminal gangs, religious fundamentalists and terrorists creating the most illiberal parts of the world in existance today. Now I would like to thank LV for drawing my attention to this article which I am sure makes uncomfortable reading to libertarians. Logically I assumed that the intention was to have an intelligent conversation about the points it raised. Up until now all I can say is that the most intelligent comments so far are those contained in the original article. Whether it stays that way is really up to you, and what it is that you want people who read this blog to understand about libertarianism. JS Mill once famously defended free speech on the grounds that even if you believe someone is wrong, at least their presentation of their point of view gives you the wonderful opportunity to understand your own opinions better. So I find it ironic to say the least that “Devil’s Kitchen” wants me to shut up, and thereby forego the benefits of free speech accordingly!
I believe in freedom but I think it is a complicated value. Giving freedom to a psychopath will allow him to kill others and in effect take away their freedom. So removing restraint does not always increase freedom. In parts of the world where governments have little or no power; Iraq, Afghanistan, DRC, Columbia the absence of restraint from government has handed de facto power over to criminal gangs, religious fundamentalists and terrorists creating the most illiberal parts of the world in existance today.
Now I would like to thank LV for drawing my attention to this article which I am sure makes uncomfortable reading to libertarians.
Logically I assumed that the intention was to have an intelligent conversation about the points it raised. Up until now all I can say is that the most intelligent comments so far are those contained in the original article. Whether it stays that way is really up to you, and what it is that you want people who read this blog to understand about libertarianism.

]]> By: Ziggy Encaoua http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1661 Ziggy Encaoua Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:34:44 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1661 'but to passionately defend those freedoms while peevishly mocking other freedoms is, I think, a bit strange.' That's because your seeing everything in blackk & white terms where as I judge each issue seperately & differently. As it goes I defend the freedom of others I'm not particularly keen on what the likes of Michael Savage or Nick Griffin have to say about the world but I'll defend their right to say it. You think the market screws over disabled people? How? Oh things like getting fired or not getting hired for being mentally ill. 'but it really is remarkable that you stood (until very recently) under the banner of libertarianism with people like Ed and Gavin' Being dignosed with liver disease can change one's perception ‘but to passionately defend those freedoms while peevishly mocking other freedoms is, I think, a bit strange.’

That’s because your seeing everything in blackk & white terms where as I judge each issue seperately & differently.

As it goes I defend the freedom of others I’m not particularly keen on what the likes of Michael Savage or Nick Griffin have to say about the world but I’ll defend their right to say it.

You think the market screws over disabled people? How?

Oh things like getting fired or not getting hired for being mentally ill.

‘but it really is remarkable that you stood (until very recently) under the banner of libertarianism with people like Ed and Gavin’

Being dignosed with liver disease can change one’s perception

]]> By: Julian Harris http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1657 Julian Harris Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:51:39 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1657 You think the market screws over disabled people? How? I don't like getting personal, but it really is remarkable that you stood (until very recently) under the banner of libertarianism with people like Ed and Gavin - given that your sole concept of freedom seems to rest upon a personal desire to smoke dope and wear dresses. By all means do both to your heart's content, I might join you one day, but to passionately defend those freedoms while peevishly mocking other freedoms is, I think, a bit strange. You think the market screws over disabled people? How?

I don’t like getting personal, but it really is remarkable that you stood (until very recently) under the banner of libertarianism with people like Ed and Gavin – given that your sole concept of freedom seems to rest upon a personal desire to smoke dope and wear dresses. By all means do both to your heart’s content, I might join you one day, but to passionately defend those freedoms while peevishly mocking other freedoms is, I think, a bit strange.

]]> By: Gandhi http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1655 Gandhi Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:45:11 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1655 <b>Ziggy:</b> You are obviously much smarter than the rest of us - you win. Ziggy: You are obviously much smarter than the rest of us – you win.

]]> By: Ziggy Encaoua http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1653 Ziggy Encaoua Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:41:57 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1653 'Good thing we have the National Institute of Trapped Human Rescue Excellence to get him out. Otherwise he’d just die there while we all groped around for profit, ignoring his plight.' Julian don't be a dick you know exactly what I meant I hsuggest you go & ask somebody who's mentally ill or disabled or screwed up some other way whether they think the market has failed them? I think deep down you know the answer ‘Good thing we have the National Institute of Trapped Human Rescue Excellence to get him out. Otherwise he’d just die there while we all groped around for profit, ignoring his plight.’

Julian don’t be a dick you know exactly what I meant

I hsuggest you go & ask somebody who’s mentally ill or disabled or screwed up some other way whether they think the market has failed them?

I think deep down you know the answer

]]> By: Ziggy Encaoua http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1652 Ziggy Encaoua Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:38:49 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1652 what would you say to somebody who wants to die? Go ahead what would you say to somebody who wants to die?

Go ahead

]]> By: Gandhi http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1648 Gandhi Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:07:32 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1648 <b>Ziggy:</b> <i>"libertarians seem to think they have a monopoly on the concept of freedom"</i> No. Libertarians think that nobody should be forcing their concept of freedom onto others (especially if you think freedom means "Arbeit"). <i>Is a man down a hole free?</i> Ask the man down the hole... That thought never occurred to you, did it? And what would you say to somebody who wants to die? Ziggy:

“libertarians seem to think they have a monopoly on the concept of freedom”

No. Libertarians think that nobody should be forcing their concept of freedom onto others (especially if you think freedom means “Arbeit”).

Is a man down a hole free?

Ask the man down the hole… That thought never occurred to you, did it?

And what would you say to somebody who wants to die?

]]> By: Julian Harris http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/07/29/libertarianism-is-the-marxism-of-the-right/comment-page-1/#comment-1647 Julian Harris Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:37:18 +0000 http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=2320#comment-1647 Ah yes, I forgot about the effect of market failure that causes people to fall down holes. Good thing we have the National Institute of Trapped Human Rescue Excellence to get him out. Otherwise he'd just die there while we all groped around for profit, ignoring his plight. Ah yes, I forgot about the effect of market failure that causes people to fall down holes.

Good thing we have the National Institute of Trapped Human Rescue Excellence to get him out. Otherwise he’d just die there while we all groped around for profit, ignoring his plight.

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