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	<title>Comments on: David Cameron must resign from the egg-throwers now</title>
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	<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/</link>
	<description>Looking Forward to Freedom</description>
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		<title>By: Liberal Vision &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Chris Davies severes conenctions with UAF, Hancock and Carmichael yet to respond</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-1003</link>
		<dc:creator>Liberal Vision &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Chris Davies severes conenctions with UAF, Hancock and Carmichael yet to respond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-1003</guid>
		<description>[...] far, I haven&#8217;t had a reply from Alistair Carmichael or Mike Hancock, the two LibDem MPs claimed as supporters by Unite Against Fascism. You can email Alistair at [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] far, I haven&#8217;t had a reply from Alistair Carmichael or Mike Hancock, the two LibDem MPs claimed as supporters by Unite Against Fascism. You can email Alistair at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Costello</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-953</link>
		<dc:creator>Costello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-953</guid>
		<description>The fact that this left Nick Griffin spouting off about it being &quot;a sad day for democracy&quot; and actually coming across as the genuine victim/sympathetic party says it all. An anti-fascist fascist is a still a fascist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that this left Nick Griffin spouting off about it being &#8220;a sad day for democracy&#8221; and actually coming across as the genuine victim/sympathetic party says it all. An anti-fascist fascist is a still a fascist.</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-942</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-942</guid>
		<description>No one is suggesting making threats! Here is my e-mail to Chris Davies MEP; as you can see I am making a logical argument.


Dear Mr Davies,

You have no doubt seen the undignified scenes outside Parliament when a flash mob of Unite Against Fascism demonstrators attacked Nick Griffin with eggs and placards. According to the BBC, a tourist caught up in the melee was injured and had to be treated by paramedics: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091605.stm

I was shocked to watch the footage of this incident, not least because I found myself feeling a modicum of sympathy (however briefly) for Nick Griffin, of all people. The BNP could not buy better publicity; had this not happened I would not have known that Messrs Griffin and Brons had held a news conference at all. Instead Nick Griffin toured the TV studios as - absurdly enough - the injured party.

As Liberal Democrats, I think we can both agree that political violence is always unacceptable. I think we can also agree on the importance of free speech - which is why Lib Dem MPs have been fighting to let people demonstrate outside Parliament. But to the official representatives of Unite Against Fascism (Donna Guthrie: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091727.stm and Martin Smith: http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/bnp8217s+griffin+under+egg+attack/3202357 ) argue that free speech is a right only for some people. Ms Guthrie announced on the BBC &quot;We don&#039;t believe in free speech for fascists.&quot;

Clearly there are limits to lawful speech. The difference is that liberals such as you and I see the limit as being defined by the content of the speech - for example, incitement to murder. UAF seem to see the limit as being defined by who is speaking, not what they are saying. Nick Griffin preening himself over how many votes he got cannot plausibly be defined as incitement.

If I was an MEP I would be pretty unhappy to share my constituency with Nick Griffin, so I can understand why you are a listed supporter of Unite Against Fascism. I also understand that such organisations may list people as supporters without their permission, but the fact is your name is listed on their website as a supporter: http://www.uaf.org.uk/aboutUAF.asp?choice=4

But I would like to ask you to publicly distance yourself from UAF and their actions and to demand that your name be removed from their list. It is not just that their actions are criminal (assault, aggravated by its political motivation), but also that they are so completely counter-productive. I look forward to your reply.

Yours sincerely,
Niklas Smith

Junior Treasurer,
Cambridge Student Liberal Democrats</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one is suggesting making threats! Here is my e-mail to Chris Davies MEP; as you can see I am making a logical argument.</p>
<p>Dear Mr Davies,</p>
<p>You have no doubt seen the undignified scenes outside Parliament when a flash mob of Unite Against Fascism demonstrators attacked Nick Griffin with eggs and placards. According to the BBC, a tourist caught up in the melee was injured and had to be treated by paramedics: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091605.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091605.stm</a></p>
<p>I was shocked to watch the footage of this incident, not least because I found myself feeling a modicum of sympathy (however briefly) for Nick Griffin, of all people. The BNP could not buy better publicity; had this not happened I would not have known that Messrs Griffin and Brons had held a news conference at all. Instead Nick Griffin toured the TV studios as &#8211; absurdly enough &#8211; the injured party.</p>
<p>As Liberal Democrats, I think we can both agree that political violence is always unacceptable. I think we can also agree on the importance of free speech &#8211; which is why Lib Dem MPs have been fighting to let people demonstrate outside Parliament. But to the official representatives of Unite Against Fascism (Donna Guthrie: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091727.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091727.stm</a> and Martin Smith: <a href="http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/bnp8217s+griffin+under+egg+attack/3202357" rel="nofollow">http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/bnp8217s+griffin+under+egg+attack/3202357</a> ) argue that free speech is a right only for some people. Ms Guthrie announced on the BBC &#8220;We don&#8217;t believe in free speech for fascists.&#8221;</p>
<p>Clearly there are limits to lawful speech. The difference is that liberals such as you and I see the limit as being defined by the content of the speech &#8211; for example, incitement to murder. UAF seem to see the limit as being defined by who is speaking, not what they are saying. Nick Griffin preening himself over how many votes he got cannot plausibly be defined as incitement.</p>
<p>If I was an MEP I would be pretty unhappy to share my constituency with Nick Griffin, so I can understand why you are a listed supporter of Unite Against Fascism. I also understand that such organisations may list people as supporters without their permission, but the fact is your name is listed on their website as a supporter: <a href="http://www.uaf.org.uk/aboutUAF.asp?choice=4" rel="nofollow">http://www.uaf.org.uk/aboutUAF.asp?choice=4</a></p>
<p>But I would like to ask you to publicly distance yourself from UAF and their actions and to demand that your name be removed from their list. It is not just that their actions are criminal (assault, aggravated by its political motivation), but also that they are so completely counter-productive. I look forward to your reply.</p>
<p>Yours sincerely,<br />
Niklas Smith</p>
<p>Junior Treasurer,<br />
Cambridge Student Liberal Democrats</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Joyce</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-938</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Joyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-938</guid>
		<description>I believe that we need a more concerted action against MP&#039;s and MEP&#039;s who put their name to this group ie a group not an individual response. The real problem with supporting this group is that it is the root of people thinking that &#039;the Liberal Democrats do not stand for anything&#039;.

We stand for freedom of speech and for the rights of elected representatives to hold a press conference outside parliament no matter how much we disagree with their views. 

Mill points out the advantages of Open Debate in exposing the weakness in arguments of opponents of freedom.

Those MP&#039;s supporting this group are misguided - I believe they would respond to logical argument and that threats aginst them are unnecessary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that we need a more concerted action against MP&#8217;s and MEP&#8217;s who put their name to this group ie a group not an individual response. The real problem with supporting this group is that it is the root of people thinking that &#8216;the Liberal Democrats do not stand for anything&#8217;.</p>
<p>We stand for freedom of speech and for the rights of elected representatives to hold a press conference outside parliament no matter how much we disagree with their views. </p>
<p>Mill points out the advantages of Open Debate in exposing the weakness in arguments of opponents of freedom.</p>
<p>Those MP&#8217;s supporting this group are misguided &#8211; I believe they would respond to logical argument and that threats aginst them are unnecessary.</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-907</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-907</guid>
		<description>Good news: I&#039;ve already had a reply from Chris Davies&#039; office saying: &quot;I spoke to Chris this morning and he agrees that what took place yesterday is both counter productive and inappropriate, and he would disassociate himself from the actions taken.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good news: I&#8217;ve already had a reply from Chris Davies&#8217; office saying: &#8220;I spoke to Chris this morning and he agrees that what took place yesterday is both counter productive and inappropriate, and he would disassociate himself from the actions taken.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-906</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-906</guid>
		<description>@Frank H Little: apparently Peter Hain was a founder of the Anti-Nazi League, so I suspect he is (or was) a more active supporter than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Nazi_League</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Frank H Little: apparently Peter Hain was a founder of the Anti-Nazi League, so I suspect he is (or was) a more active supporter than that. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Nazi_League" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Nazi_League</a></p>
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		<title>By: Frank H Little</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-904</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank H Little</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-904</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;God only knows why a Cabinet minister - Peter Hain -  is listed. &lt;/i&gt;

I would have to check with his office, but I guess a short UAF email appeared among the many addressed to him. His staff thought: &quot;what right-thinking person is not against fascism?&quot; and, in ignorance, signed him up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>God only knows why a Cabinet minister &#8211; Peter Hain &#8211;  is listed. </i></p>
<p>I would have to check with his office, but I guess a short UAF email appeared among the many addressed to him. His staff thought: &#8220;what right-thinking person is not against fascism?&#8221; and, in ignorance, signed him up.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Littlewood</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-902</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Littlewood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-902</guid>
		<description>Mike Hancock MP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike Hancock MP.</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-901</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-901</guid>
		<description>I have e-mailed Alistair Carmichael and Chris Davies. Who is the other Lib Dem on the UAF list?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have e-mailed Alistair Carmichael and Chris Davies. Who is the other Lib Dem on the UAF list?</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.liberal-vision.org/2009/06/09/david-cameron-must-resign-from-the-egg-throwers-now/comment-page-1/#comment-900</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liberal-vision.org/?p=1509#comment-900</guid>
		<description>@Lee Griffin: well, legally it&#039;s common assault. And would you really like to have to wash egg yolk out of your clothes?

Who are the Lib Dems on the list? The only names I recognised were Alistair Carmichael MP and Chris Davies MEP. I will also e-mail them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Lee Griffin: well, legally it&#8217;s common assault. And would you really like to have to wash egg yolk out of your clothes?</p>
<p>Who are the Lib Dems on the list? The only names I recognised were Alistair Carmichael MP and Chris Davies MEP. I will also e-mail them.</p>
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